my life and my doctrine

One aspect at least is that it is significantly harder, in real dollar terms, to accomplish the financial aspects of those five goals now than in 1960. Substantially harder.

I think that the extension of adolescence is quite a big deal. One of the major things that will affect the maturity of Christians with this extension of time is the lack of responsibility taken by those who ‘have not grown up yet’.

The church needs people who will take responsibility and step up – in more things that just being bible study leaders or preachers. People need to step up and take responsibility for the role they play in church, in the way that they are responsible for the encouragement and care of those around them, in the way that they are responsible for welcoming that new person next to them, in the way that they are responsible for serving at church – all things were people are to act as adults who realise that it is their responsibility to give, to provide and to love. Not just to take like some child who still has everything provided for by their parents.

@Budd – I don’t think that it is that much more difficult in terms of financial things to achieve those 5 things (unless being financially independent means owning your own house – which I think it doesn’t). Marriage and children I’ll grant you may be harder as people tend to do uni and get careers sorted before tackling these things which can push them into the 30s, but living out of your parents home, finishing school and paying for your own bills is not at all difficult by 30.

Luke

OK. So I probably don’t classify as an ‘emerging adult’… but I’m going to give put in my 2 cents anyway The folks over at Boundless (http://www.boundless.org/) seem endlessly fascinated with this topic too, and I must admit this growing preoccupation concerns me a little.

Why? Well, my concern is that discussions about the delay of adulthood is chiefly sociological rather than necessarily biblical (similar to what you said Josh about shifting societal expectations). I certainly agree there is a place for exhorting young men and women to grow up… but I think we are better off encouraging to them grow in godliness and sanctification rather than ‘grow up and be an adult’.

The factors that Albert Mohler, the Boundless authors et al consider to be marks of adulthood seem to be mainly sociological in character (eg. move out of home and get your own place, get a job which enables you to pay for the mortgage on your own place, get married and have a family of your own… and do all of this as young as you possibly can). But I’m not sure the Bible focuses on these aspects of life so much as it focuses on urgently exhorting us to grow more like Christ. Rather than encouraging young men and women to tick the boxes on what society expects of emerging adults, I wonder whether perhaps we should be encouraging young men and women to seek to display the fruit of the spirit in their lives and to see that as the growing mark of their maturity.

Also, I do think we need to keep in mind the different contexts that Albert Mohler etc are writing in (eg. US christian culture as opposed to our own).

@Luke – I agree that we want to encourage christians to care for and love those around them… but the reality is that there are many christians who have been adults (according to society’s standards) for many years now who are not much further along that some of our young people are on all of that. Yes, there is probably some correlation between ‘growing in adulthood’ and ‘growing in sanctification’. But I don’t think it is a comprehensive or parallel correlation. That’s why I think we are better of exhorting people to ‘emerging sanctification/godliness’ rather than ‘emerging adulthood’ (per se).

I’m sure that there may be some correlation but I don’t think that Christian maturity should be measured by worldly standards. Maturity in the bible is not described by those milestones. So although the delayed “maturity” can be seen as problematic, it may in fact leave room for more ministry and can be used as a time where life isn’t as fixed or tied down. Don’t get me wrong, there’s lots about Gen Y that I don’t understand- but lack of worldly maturity doesn’t exclude young adults from Christian maturity.

I like Dani’s comment.

I also don’t agree with this from Chris, ‘One aspect at least is that it is significantly harder, in real dollar terms, to accomplish the financial aspects of those five goals now than in 1960.’ If we spent and saved like people did in the 60′s, then most shouldn’t have a problem saving the money required to get into a 60′s size home (approx half the average size of our current homes from memory.) House prices have increased, substantially, but so have our property expectations and other luxury expenditures.

And as Luke said, there is nothing wrong with renting.

That’s all I have to say.

@Luke – That’s true, it isn’t difficult by 30. However, doing uni and getting a career sorted out have increased the length of adolescence, just not quite to the extreme of 30. The average marriage age has gone from roughly 22 to roughly 27, which would suggest a five year extension. If you imagine the difference between 18 and 23, it is a big difference.
Regardless, the lack of responsibility naturally flows from this. There’s no responsibility to have. If you live at home while you study, which is fiscally the best option, you just do not have the responsibilities to learn to be responsible for in order to naturally grow up and become responsible. It doesn’t matter how adamant the parents may be about doing your own washing or paying board, the buck does not stop with you for anything financially therefore you do not learn to be responsible until later.
If you shift the age down from 30 to what was normal in 1960, close to 22 (based on the average age of marriage in 1960) then it is harder. House prices are now (or were prior to the GFC) seven times the average annual income. The 1960′s-ish it was three times. Even if you’re not trying to own a house, the rent you pay will’ve gone up accordingly. One of the OECD (I think) reports on housing affordability shows that when prices go beyond four or five times average income affordability decreases very rapidly. Think about it in terms of disposable income – if rent/mortgage is 40% rather than 20% of your income, that’s a huge difference. And you still have to pay all the other bills you usually would have (gas, water etc). Some things do get cheaper, milk and bread are much much cheaper in real dollars now compared to the 1920′s, but I’d prefer if my mortgage was 60% cheaper rather than my groceries.

@Dani@Helena I suspect that although it is quite correct to suggest these sociological factors are not what the Bible considers maturity, it will be markedly more difficult to have Christians grow in Christian maturity when they haven’t or aren’t in the process of achieving sociological maturity.

@Steve it relates to my earlier comments in this post. We do not have the same level of disposable income to save now compared to the 1960′s. Similarly, the average home in the 1960′s was half the size but the average price was three times average income not seven. To a certain extent that’s availability – I’d hazard a guess that there are less 1960′s sized homes to buy, as all the new ones are built bigger. Then there’s population growth increasing competition irrespective of size… Say it costs half as much to build a 1960′s house as a 2010 house. The 2010 house isn’t currently only double the 1960′s house in cost, it’s more. Without even taking into account the availability/competition aspects, the price has still clearly increased in real dollar terms.
I’m not so sure property expectations have increased so much – in the shorter(er) term moving out of home expectations I’d posit that the expectation consists of ‘nearby-ish’. For the average graduate income, a dwelling (house/flat/etc) in Matthias’ catchment costs at least eight times that income. Even the cheapest nastiest flats are four-five times the income. Even if you moved out to the ‘burbs you’d still be paying eight times your income with the only differences being you get a house rather than a flat and pay several times more for travel.

Coming back to the Christian maturity thing, I’ve mostly summed up my position already. Although not required for Christian maturity, sociological maturity will make Christian maturity blossom. If this trend of Christian and sociological maturity occurring later is to be reversed, the factors affecting sociological maturity will need to be addressed. These include both the standards of Gen Y (false expectations of living standard) and the fiscal problems facing Gen Y (it is financially imprudent to move out of home whilst single and/or studying, and debatable whether such a poor fiscal move is worth the slightly earlier improvement in maturity).

Also, there is plenty wrong with (long-term) renting. The French do it, for one.

G’Day all,
I should start by saying I’m a 30 something not 20 something, so don’t think I fit the category that Josh was hoping to engage. But this topic is one I find intriguing. Maybe it’s because I am transitioning from young and hip to old and grumpy . Here are my thoughts anyway

I had a glance at Mohler’s blog when he first posted and thought yeah he might be on to something. But Josh you (and the commentators) have caused me to think about it again and read again with more care.

I’ve been trying to distill my thoughts these last few days because as I said my initial reaction was to agree with Mohler however, in typical fashion Dani has caused me to reassess. Why do you always manage to do that Dani?

I think, as has been said (Stephen and Luke), that the five milestones are very attainable now.
and it is a matter of lowering our expectations, hopes and dreams a little.
This might make me sound old but I can recall stories from both my parents and especially my grandparents of how they made do with what they had and did not suffer for it.

We (I mean Gen X and Y here) have grown up in an age of abundance. We have never really had to go without. Apart from the “recession we had to have” we have enjoyed relatively high employment rates and a buoyant economy.

This, along with the sexual revolution of the 60′s, feminism and no doubt other factors have contributed to the social situation that Mohler describes and laments. (note that I think much good came from these especially feminism).

But

I agree with Dani. We need to move beyond the sociological analysis and the “it was better in my day” attitude.

So my thoughts have have been that this situation does have some affect on sanctification.
In saying that I don’t think that “not emerging as an adult” will stop us maturing in Christlikeness. Nor that attaining the five goals will guarantee our move along the road of sanctification.

I do get the feeling that what Mohler is getting at, and certainly I believe the possible effect of “extended adolescence”, is that certain unhelpful attitudes in terms of sanctification seem to often, though not always, go hand in hand with the “extension of adolescence”. Things such as selfishness, potential decline in sexual purity (the only thing Mohler explicitly points to), greed, pride etc.

So isn’t Mohler trying to say that by encouraging Christians to “transition to adulthood” earlier him simply saying that doing this will be a MEANS to their spiritual maturity?

Heya Mr R.

“…however, in typical fashion Dani has caused me to reassess. Why do you always manage to do that Dani?”

If I told you why (or how) I’d have to kill you. And I don’t think Mrs R would like that.

“So isn’t Mohler trying to say that by encouraging Christians to “transition to adulthood” earlier him simply saying that doing this will be a MEANS to their spiritual maturity?”

Yes, I think so. And I do have some sympathy for his argument in that sense. But I’m still hesitant to draw a direct correlation between ‘transition to societally defined adulthood’ and ‘spiritual maturity’. Yes, as Christians ‘grow up’ and take on particular responsibilities and start meeting particular societal expectations they will likely, under God, grow in their spiritual maturity at the same time. BUT… who says the correlation has to work in THAT direction?

For example, let’s consider Frank (he who has ears let him hear). Frank is a 23 year old christian male who lives at home with mum and dad, pays no rent and does minimal chores, is still pottering away at uni, holds down a casual (very casual) job, makes it to church and bible study on a ‘regular’ (in the Gen X sense of the word) basis and spends the bulk of his time playing the 2010 equivalent of ‘Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?’ – just with a lot more guns, bombs and violence. Yes, Frank is a stereotype.

If I have understood Mohler correctly, he would argue that Frank’s spiritual maturity (which really should be what concerns us most about our friend Frank) is being hindered by the fact that he hasn’t moved out of home, gotten himself married, finished uni, found a 9-5 job, reached financial independence and thinking seriously about welcoming Frank Jr. into the world.

But who is to say that it isn’t the other way around? Perhaps Frank’s extended adolescence is a result of his near-to-stagnant spiritual growth? I mean, given that Frank isn’t growing in sanctification and isn’t consistently and increasingly displaying the fruit of the spirit in his life, then I’m not at all surprised that he is happy with keeping the status quo and no upsetting the comfortable, self-focused life that he has carved out for himself.

That is, what I am asking is why we think that transitioning to adulthood is a means to spiritual maturity, rather than thinking that perhaps it is the growth in spiritual maturity that will likely manifest itself in a transition to adulthood (amongst other things).

It would seem to me that, theologically speaking, the latter of these is more consistent with the focus and concerns of Scripture

Having said that, I do have to admit upfront that my concerns on this topic are probably influenced by some greater concerns I have with regards to Mohlers (and others) theology on the place and purpose of marriage v singleness (hobby horse alert!). After all, according to Mohler’s ‘milestones’… I’m not doing so great on the adult-front. I only really ‘completed school’ 2 years ago at the age of 30. I didn’t leave home until my mid-20′s and even then it was to move into a boarding house where all my meals were cooked for me and I never had to clean a toilet. Truth be told, my parents still help me out financially a little. I’m not married with children and whilst the chance of the first happening are pretty darn slim, the chance of the second is fast becoming non-existent.

And yet, 10 years ago whilst I was still studying at uni, still living at home, still (somewhat) financially dependent on my parents and still boyfriend-less (let alone husband-less and child-less) I was keenly involved in ministry both at my church and elsewhere. I can see that I was growing in spiritual maturity. I know God was at work in me so that I might display the fruit of the Spirit. And he has continued to do that over the years (though of course I still have a very, very long way to go).

As such I just can’t help wondering whether Mohler et al has it the wrong way around. The priority seems to me to be spiritual transformation will will then effect our societal and relational growth.

Here endeth the rant.

So Dani, I think we are again back on the same sheet of music
But to put some rubber on the road and turn theology into practice (for without practice it useless. -
What would it look like if you were encouraging the ubiquitous “Frank” to be more godly?